Posts by Olin Moyles Ghost

508

Most-Ignored Scriptures by JWs

by Mad Sweeney in

the watchtower has been known for over 130 years as a great scriptural cherry-picker.

they pick out disparate unrelated verses and combine them to support the wackiest of wacky doctrines.. on the other hand there are many scriptures they almost never address, whether because they contradict wt doctrine or because they simply don't have a clue what they mean or how to spin them to the wt advantage.. one of these is revelation 19:1 that mentions a "great crowd" "in heaven.

" the only time it is ever brought up it is dismissed.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Great topic. Try these:

Luke 21:8: He said: “Look out that YOU are not misled; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The due time has approached.’ Do not go after them. [In other words, Jesus said don't follow religious leaders who say The End is near.]
Matthew 8:11: But I tell YOU that many from eastern parts and western parts will come and recline at the table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens [so Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are in heaven?]
Luke 16:19-31 (parable of rich man and Lazarus) [total acid trip that throws a wrench into JW beliefs regarding the afterlife]
Luke 10:7: So stay in that house, eating and drinking the things they provide, for the worker is worthy of his wages. Do not be transferring from house to house. [this verse explicitly states NOT to go house-to-house]

4

Very Accurate and Creative (Not)

by Kum Vulcan in

you must have been given the example below in your dealings with jws and blood.

at least i have been told the same stupid thing over and over again by every jw, i've had any discussion on the topic with and by any speaker on the platform when it came to the "abstaining" from blood.. here it goes: "if your doctor told you to abstain from alcohol and you had it injected in your veins, didi you really follow your doctor's advice?

(a self -righteous "i gotcha now" look follows....).

Olin Moyles Ghost

I would turn the argument around on the JW as follows:

If your doctor told you to abstain from MEAT, does this mean you can't have a LIVER TRANSPLANT?

And to answer your question about why the WTS uses this type of reasoning, I would say they use it because it works. It's easy to understand and easy to remember. The fact that it's scientifically dubious and logically flawed doesn't matter. It's the equivalent of a sound-bite. And just like the sound-bites that politicians use (for example, "death panels"), they don't stand up to scrutiny...but that doesn't matter because the target audience doesn't subject them to scrutiny.

28

Does Anyone Like the New Songbook?

by metatron in

jw
friends

i'll try not to be 'knee-jerk' critical about this subject but do any witnesses like the new songbook?

ok, they got rid of some awful lyrics about molesting bees - and downsized references to the ever redundant jesus - but the music itself sounds like forced piano practice.

trying to sing these slow, pedantic tunes is awkward and painful.. i haven't seen any witness e-mails about this 'wonderful provision from jehovah' and his faithful hacks, so i wonder if the rank and file aren't enthused either.

Olin Moyles Ghost

When the new songbook came out, one JW I know said that the new songs were musically "better" and easier to sing than the old songs. I should point out that this JW is a major "know-it-all" who considers himself an expert in music and has an interest in telling me positive things about the org., so that probably influenced what he told me.

I first heard the new songs at the memorial. Maybe it's just my "bad attitude" but I think the new songs (at least the ones played at the memorial) suck even worse than the old ones. And that's saying something!

68

What Are Some Of The Dumbest Beliefs JW's Have?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i know there are a lot.. one belief i never understood is that blood fractions might be ok for a christian but not "whole blood".

to me the "blood doctrine" is ridiculous from a scriptural point of view..

Olin Moyles Ghost

Pick just about anything from Daniel or Revelation. Such as:

The 7 trumpet blasts are 7 district conventions in the 1920s.
The 2300 days of Daniel 8:14 began in 1938 when a Watchtower article about Organization was published and ended at the 1944 Annual Meeting when the WT's board of directors amended the corporate charter.

...and plenty more...

79

IT'S OFFICIAL - New Elder's Manual by end of 2010

by sir82 in

jw
friends

per a "top secret, confidential, burn this after you read it" letter to all boes, dated march 2, 2010, but not read in our congregation until this past week:.

new "kingdom ministry" school for all elders and ministerial servants, to be held (in the us anyway) between november 2010 and january 2011.. 6 hours of jaw dropping tedium instruction for ms, 9 for elders.

ms session to be held on a sunday, elders on friday and saturday.. the "super secret surprise", for elders only: a new textbook will be released to be studied at this "school".

Olin Moyles Ghost

Thanks for the intel, Sir82. As to which approach the WTS will use to keep the contents secret, I'd put my money on (B). There's not much truly "secret" material in the elder's book anyway. Most of it is simply distilled from WT articles.

20

Help Please- Gods prophets in Bible made mistakes like GB?

by AwSnap in

i have a family member coming over tomorrow to discuss this.

it was actually brought up a long time ago, but i forgot about it.

he told me 2 days ago that he found some information that he'd researched.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Hey AwSnap,

Looks like I'm a bit late to this party. Anyway, here are my thoughts for what they're worth.

I would expect the JW to use one or more of the following:

1) The apostles didn't correctly understand "The Kingdom." They thought that Jesus was going to restore Israel to its former glory. (for example, in Acts 1:6 they asked "Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time).

2) Similar to #1, some disciples thought that Jesus said that the apostle John would never die. (John 21:20-23; note that verse 23 mentions a rumor that spread among the early Christians that John would never die)

3) The prophet Nathan made a statement that could be construed as false. This is a (IMHO very weak) argument that some JW apologists use. If you read 2 Samuel 7:1-3. King David tells Nathan that he wants to build a temple for God; Nathan says go ahead, for the Lord is with you. Well, in verses 12-13, God tells Nathan to tell David that David's son (not David) will build the temple. So, some JWs argue that Nathan made an incorrect statement to David but still functioned as a true prophet of God.

Well, if you actually read the verses, Nathan didn't say that David would build the temple. He merely said, do what you want; God is with you. It's a major stretch for JWs to compare such vague, general statements with Rutherford's "indisputable conclusion that millions now living will never die."

And, for all of these examples, it's important to note that there is not a shred of evidence that these folks required their fellow believers to accept their speculations as doctrine upon pain of shunning and excommunication. Rather, #1 and #2 seem like examples of the kind of rumors that pass through the congregations. To me (and anyone else who looks at it objectively), there's a huge difference between rand-and-file members passing rumors and leadership promulgating false doctrine.

Shouldn't the leadership have some responsibility and accountability? That's what gets to me. The WTS leadership are like politicians--they refuse to accept responsibility or accountability. Everything is someone else's fault. For example, when some rank-and-file members made bad decisions around 1925 or 1975, the Society blamed them for being over-eager. Never mind the fact that the WTS beat the drums and built up the false expectations. But, of course, the WTS laid the blame at the feet of the victims.

15

Superior Authorities of Romans 13

by Mad Sweeney in

romans 13:1,2 (nwt): "let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by god; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by god.

2 therefore he who opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of god; those who have taken a stand against it will receive judgment to themselves.".

originally the borg taught that the superior authorities were gentile governments.. later, in 1929, they taught that the superior authorities were jehovah god and his son, jesus christ.. later once again, in 1962, they taught that the superior authorities were the governments of the world.. a change is due.

Olin Moyles Ghost

I don't think so. This is a pretty embarrassing flip-flop for the WTS. I don't see them going back to the Rutherford interpretation. And how did they explain verse 6 (about paying taxes), anyway? It seems like that makes it crystal-clear that he's referring to secular governments.

19

Here's the JW answer to it all......

by palmtree67 in

i was talking to a jw friend about what it was that ct russell was doing prior to 1914 that made him acceptable to jesus, over everyone else.. i mentioned the pyramids, celebration of "pagan" holidays, stealing of thoughts from other religious people, the "odd" lifestyle of russell, etc.

and i asked, "so, what was it that made ct russell more acceptable to god than anyone else at that time?".

the answer:.

Olin Moyles Ghost

If you really want to believe something, you can come up with an explanation/rationalization for it. The WTS is not alone in this. Today, for example, there are people who can provide detailed explanations to support their positions that (1) the 1969 moon landing was a hoax; (2) 9/11/2001 was an inside job; (3) President Obama was born in Kenya; (4) dinosaurs and humans coexisted a few thousand years ago; etc...

I put JWs in the same categories as the crackpots mentioned above. They have chosen to believe a certain set of facts, and they are willing to twist reality as necessary to support those facts.

To me, it boils down to Ockham's razor. What is the simplest explanation? Applying this principle to JW doctrine (or any other fundamentalism for that matter) is typically fatal.

7

Is this a contradiction or is it just the way i'm reading it?

by The Finger in

in the book insight on the scriptures page 996 under the subheading popular views,.

"obviously, then, although revelation 14:3 says that the 144,000 have been "brought from the earth" the context depicts them as being, not on earth, but in heaven with the heavenly lamb, christ jesus.".

this is to defeat the arguement that the 144,000 are "members of the christian congregation while on earth whereas the "great crowd" are the resurrected christians in heaven.. in the book revelation its grand climax at hand!

Olin Moyles Ghost

Interesting catch. It does appear to be a contradiction. If I recall correctly, the Insight books and the Revelation book were released around the same time (1988/89). Of course, the bulk of the material in the Insight books is directly lifted from the old Aid book (1971), so perhaps it's some "old light" that wasn't corrected during the editing process.

In general, though, I find Revelation 14:1-4 to be a fun topic of discussion with JWs. In short, the WTS teaches that the 144,000 mentioned in verse 1 is a literal number, but in verse 3, it's symbolic (it represents the remnant on earth during the "last days"). Most JWs don't know this. If you're feeling frisky, try the following:

Me: So when the Bible mentions 144,000, that number is literal, correct?

JW: Yes.

Me: (turn to Rev. 14) So when verse 1 refers to 144,000 that is literal?

JW: Yes.

Me: and they're in heaven, right? (verse 1 says they're with the lamb on Mt. Zion)

JW: Yes, they are.

Me: Ok. How about verse 3, what is going on there?

JW: The verse says they're singing a new song before the throne and the 24 elders.

Me: Who are the 24 elders?

JW: They represent the 144,000 serving as kings and priests.

Me: So they're singing before themselves? How does that work?

JW: umm, the Revelation book says that the remnant of the 144,000 is singing in front of the already-resurrected 144,000.

Me: So, let me get this straight. In verse 1, the 144,000 is a literal number of resurrected people in heaven, but then in verse 3, the 144,000 means a much smaller number of people who are still on earth?

JW: Yes, that's what the Revelation book says.

Me: So, in other words, you believe that 144,000 in the Bible is a literal number sometimes but not always?

JW: This is pretty deep, let me do some research and get back with you...

36

Have You Visited JW Facts?

by leavingwt in

jw
friends

for newer members.

if you haven't already done so, please visit the site and have a look around.

here are a few of my favorite pages, there:.

Olin Moyles Ghost

In my humble opinion, JWFACTS is the best WT/JW-related site out there. It's heavy on the facts and WT quotes, and devoid of vitriol and wild speculation. Very well done.